Curse

Magikarp · Sep 20, 2009, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

And the tiny matter of viable timed interrupts, like Savage, Ago/DChop. Sword/Axe autoattacks are quite a bit more buff than those of daggers, which means Warriors can (and should) pressure when using a skill isn't warranted. This ability is of course balanced by the fact that a War's attack skills themselves aren't as damaging as an Assassin, it's only fair.

Following from this, an Assassin delaying his attack skills, waiting for the 'right' time to use them, isn't playing to his class' strengths, since the one benefit they have over Warriors is the ability to rack up big yellow numbers in a small time frame.

Adding to that, Warriors don't have to commit like Assassins do (compare Bull's Strike to Leaping Mantis Sting).

Stonefists' effect is BIG, do not underestimate the difference between 2 and 3 seconds. Also, the notion that Shock can be run equally well on Warriors and Sins is subject to debate. Apart from lacking the Stonefists, the Sin's reliance on energy may limit its use despite his more ready access.

I am, of all people I can think of, the best example. I played Assassin vigorously, but these days I enjoy my Warrior far more - simply because the class rewards real skill instead of just broad positioning and timing. So yeah, I'd say the Warrior class has more depth.

/endrant.

RIP Death Blossom, at least you're still 2s in PvE, where you belong.

Energy should nearly never be an issue on a class who's primary is directly related to passive energy gain.. even during auto-attack. Sins still have interruption skills (exhaust/disrupting dagger) too, so I'm not sure where you're going with that.

As far as auto-attack itself goes, you said:

"This ability is of course balanced by the fact that a War's attack skills themselves aren't as damaging as an Assassin, it's only fair."

which is correct. Some of the best sin players I've ever seen also auto-attack when with specific goals (like triggering another players DW, causing faster finshers, etc), though albeit, not a lot. Again, we're talking two radically different classes..

You compare Bulls to Leaping, which is unfair, because again, radically different moves. Compare Leaping to Cripslash.. Talk about commitment..

Then you mention the use of Stonefist.. A passive effect based on an armor upgrade.. really really not applicable. If you're talking "skill", you're putting your foot in your mouth with that subject.

So far, most, if not all of the points you made, really have nothing to do with skill at all, but instead skill choice and a rune...

Reverend Dr · Sep 20, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Warriors must build adrenaline to use skills. A better warrior with better team support will be able to charge adrenaline faster. Likewise through kiting, snares, warrior hate a better team will be able to prevent their opponent's warriors from gaining adrenaline.

Sins have nothing to do other than wait for skills to recharge. No amount of skill, or build selection, or good play will increase or decrease those recharges (lol diversion, that's right you can diversion any skill, so everything is always balanced).

The difference between sins and warriors lies in the recharging of attack skills; don't try to kid yourself or sugarcoat it, that difference makes all the difference. The adrenaline system was the best idea Anet ever had when creating guild wars. It is no mere coincidence that the further expansions that moved away from it have been negative changes to the game itself.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 20, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Let's classify assassins in 3 different types:

1) Attack chain sins.

Pretty much useless at the stand, only real 'skill' involved is decision making and rolling your face over the keyboard smoothly so you press the buttons in the right order.

2) Spam sins.

Kinda like R/As without the blockstances, those aren't really viable (in GvG at least) but I'll mention them for completeness. Pressing 1-2-3, rapidly and repeatedly isn't exactly the epitomy of skill either, no building adrenaline, looking for 'openings' etc involved.

Simply pick a target, press buttons, change target when needed, press more buttons.
I suppose when you add in skills like Leaping Mantis, Wild Strike and Exhausting Assault it becomes a little more versatile, still not anywhere near as skillful as playing warrior well (playing well is not to be confused with being successful, this is guild wars after all).

3) Caster sins.

Kinda the same as chain sins except they don't need to hit and usually don't require LoS either, chains are in general less deadly but can be used in quicker succession. Sometimes allows you to vary your chain a little bit, in essence it plays more or less the same though. Not particularly skillful, only aspect that seperates good players from bad ones is decision making/target selection.

Sins are very easy to play and easy to play well, warriors are easy to play and not that easy to play well.

This does not apply to Primal Rage warriors.

Greedy Gus · Sep 20, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demigod Heracles

Less ROCKDOWN

tl;dr: warriors have a higher ceiling of effectiveness than assassins because warriors can do more than their combo.

Definitely, but you summed up the wrong point. The more relevant aspect of this discussion is that assassins have a much higher floor of effectiveness, because they have less to worry about. Obviously warriors are taken instead of assassins at the highest levels of melee play; the idea is that a bad player (or someone who wants to ignore micro) can play an assassin and get much more effective production compared to playing a warrior.

Magikarp · Sep 20, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Warriors must build adrenaline to use skills. A better warrior with better team support will be able to charge adrenaline faster. Likewise through kiting, snares, warrior hate a better team will be able to prevent their opponent's warriors from gaining adrenaline.

Sins have nothing to do other than wait for skills to recharge. No amount of skill, or build selection, or good play will increase or decrease those recharges (lol diversion, that's right you can diversion any skill, so everything is always balanced).

The difference between sins and warriors lies in the recharging of attack skills; don't try to kid yourself or sugarcoat it, that difference makes all the difference. The adrenaline system was the best idea Anet ever had when creating guild wars. It is no mere coincidence that the further expansions that moved away from it have been negative changes to the game itself.

So.. basically rangers and dervs take no skill at all then? Wait for skills to recharge>use them>repeat? Rangers, even good rangers, spam their interrupts both with brains and with gusto, so do dervs with their WS and Pious.

Snares, anti-melee, blind, "warrior hate" are all applicable to any melee, or even ranged phys classes, so again, I don't see your point outside of "adrenaline takes time to build". You said it yourself, adren isn't hard to build these days, plus, you deal a decent amount of damage just auto-attacking/bulls while waiting for your opening. Sins don't even get that.

No, nothing a sin (or any other energy-based phys class.. or even caster classes for record) does or has can really affect the time it takes to recharge a skill, but again, that's with anything. More importantly, it's the skill use of your selections that make all the difference. Dshot is a god in the hands of a good player, as is Bull's.. but you have to wait for that recharge.. Just like everyone else.. like a sin. So again, I'm not seeing your point there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

The day I see a Chiizu dance on an assassin is the day that I will consider Assassin a class that takes skill. Until then warriors will always take more skill than assassins

Then maybe you should watch better assassins? Idk what your point is here. You're talking about a tactic that anyone, including yourself, could use. If you don't see it.. do it. See how much harder it is on a sin.. or even a derv for that matter. The dance is best used by a warrior anyhow simply for their natural survivability and the fact that you're up in your targets face non-stop. That's not what a sin is for.. So.. yeaaaaaah...

Kaon · Sep 20, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I think most people are forgetting the fact that assassins are actually the most fun class to play in the game. There really is nothing better than running a wastrels collapse or AoD sin, go out there on your own, and whenever an opponent makes a mistake, you penetrate him anally. No stupid teammates you have to rely on, just you, several opponents, his NPC friends, and your teleports.

Reverend Dr · Sep 21, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Snares, anti-melee, blind, "warrior hate" are all applicable to any melee, or even ranged phys classes, so again, I don't see your point outside of "adrenaline takes time to build".

That is the point. That is the only point. You don't seem to be able to grasp that point. The time it takes adrenaline to build is affected by your, your teams', and your opponents' skill.

Any type of warrior hate at any time will slow down a warrior, either cause skill usage to miss, halt skill usage, or halt adrenal gain. Putting this hate on a sin or derv only matter during skill usage. For the relevant sin requirement, don't attack while blind. A blind, snared, or KD'd warrior is not building adren; a blind, shared, and KD'd sin is still recharging skills.

The adrenal system is what the game should be balanced around, not some RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing naruto afterthought abortion of an an idea. The adrenal system rewards skillful play and punishes poor play. The adrenal system was the center during the GWWC, when the game had a competitive playerbase. The adrenal system is what makes the game fun.

Magikarp · Sep 21, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

That is the point. That is the only point. You don't seem to be able to grasp that point. The time it takes adrenaline to build is affected by your, your teams', and your opponents' skill.

Any type of warrior hate at any time will slow down a warrior, either cause skill usage to miss, halt skill usage, or halt adrenal gain. Putting this hate on a sin or derv only matter during skill usage. For the relevant sin requirement, don't attack while blind. A blind, snared, or KD'd warrior is not building adren; a blind, shared, and KD'd sin is still recharging skills.

The adrenal system is what the game should be balanced around, not some RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing naruto afterthought abortion of an an idea. The adrenal system rewards skillful play and punishes poor play. The adrenal system was the center during the GWWC, when the game had a competitive playerbase. The adrenal system is what makes the game fun.

"The adrenal system is what makes the game fun." is opinion, and game balance for any game should never be based on opinion. Secondly, a KDed/blind/anti-melee anything BUT warriors (and paras) still recharge. Are they OP? Should they be balanced to Warriors? Surely if you want to get into a X vs Y fight, rangers>warriors in every way possible simply based around apply poison/elite/nat stride/dshot/end game.

No. Rangers and every other class is balanced to the game's entirety, not just warriors.

Reverend Dr · Sep 21, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

and game balance for any game should never be based on opinion.

Then what do you base it on? And there isn't an answer to this that isn't ultimately some form of opinion.

Magikarp · Sep 21, 2009, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Then what do you base it on? And there isn't an answer to this that isn't ultimately some form of opinion.

balance is a natural result of said effects. If one or more effects are not in sync, then the whole is not balanced. If one thing in a game is obviously (and sometimes not as obviously) overpower (or underpowered) then that games said mechanics or features are not in balance. A feature of GWs is the adrenal system, which in turn, is balanced to the rest of the game in entirety. Adrenaline/skills/spells/signets... all should (and mostly) and do have relationship to one another.

Just like there are specific anti-adren skills like soothing, visages, etc, there are anti energy based attacker skills as well (which are far more popular anyhow..) i.e. spirit shackles, debil shot. Not to mention, warriors do sorta use energy skills? Bulls, crushing, savage, distracting, etc.. I don't see how those aren't scaled or incorporated into your equation. Should all of our physical professions use only adrenaline if that's the case too?

Balance is mathematical. Simple as that. 1 = 1. 2 = 2. And so on.

Magikarp · Sep 21, 2009, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

at magikarp, u srsly think deb shot is an "anti energy based attacker skill"?
...
moreover, you're forgetting that deciding what's OP is more often than not already a subject to people's opinion.

No. Deb Shot is an anti energy anything skill. It was an example that energy based attackers have far more to worry about simply based on that. Energy surge/burn, getting their e-management skill disabled/interrupted etc.

And again, while how to deal with OP things is a matter of opinion, when something is out of balance, it's obvious what needs to be fixed.

Smiters Boon running circles on nearly all platforms of play was in obvious need of a fix.. It took a group of peoples opinions on how to fix it. Any idiot could tell that escape/boon/rage/etc were op.

If you wreck your car, you're basically taking that car out of the equation of your regular life. If that's your only car, your normal routine is now out of whack and probably messed up. You can then decide to leave it that way and live the life of a hobbit, get a new car, or fix the old car. Until you make an opinionated decision, your life will be, and could continue based on said choice, out of balance. It's obvious the car is wrecked... then what?

Moriz was right, let's move on. Semantics are boring.

Byron · Sep 21, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Overall, pretty pleased with the update. It was a week late. Could complain more, but won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theraven000

The fact that you are bitching about Defy Pain in the PvP thread astounds me.

Defy pain is underrated, imho. It may yet get its play in serious pvp.

Reverend Dr · Sep 21, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Balance is mathematical. Simple as that. 1 = 1. 2 = 2. And so on.

Show me the equation that is Guild Wars. If it is mathematical then there must be an equation; I would like to see that equation.

snaek · Sep 21, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

remember primal rage? remember warriors endurance? both of those were pretty damn mindless. granted not as bad as ps sins or other garbage spam sins.

the biggest thing about being an effective sin is decision making; something that most wars neglect because they can load off spikes pretty damn often with very little consequence.

the problem with the current sin attack chain system is that there are too few skill slots to provide any thoughtful decision making processes in terms of skill usage--you only have to think about when to unload your spike. you can only have 1 possible attack chain to fit on your bar, and therefore the build will always play out like 1-2-3-4-5. if you could fit an infinite amount of skills on your bar, there would be more thoughtful skill usage. however that is of course impossible.

so my ideal solution to sins would be to rework the whole system so that chains either go lead attack->dual attack, or off-hand attack->dual attack. with every single offhand attack having a requirement to connect similar to the ones already in place, while enchanted, while foe is hexed, but also some new ones such as while foe is moving, or while foe is activating a skill. lead attacks will require less thought to use and can be used at any time, however will be less powerful. this should remove the 1-2-3-4-5 playstyles.

Magikarp · Sep 21, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Well, some builds have a little room for variety, like how the Golden attacks on Cytherea's latest bar are interchangeable, or the Falling offhand in a build with multiple KDs.

Shame is, these builds generally aren't the strongest around.

Before HotO's nerf, there were tons of interchangeable combos out there. Same with BLS. They were too powerful. Thus.. nerf.

Krill · Sep 22, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

remember primal rage? remember warriors endurance? both of those were pretty damn mindless. granted not as bad as ps sins or other garbage spam sins.

P-rage is still meta btw.